i read not to stop taking it suddenly as it can make asthma symptoms worse? Remove the mouthpiece from your mouth and hold your breath for about 10 seconds or for as long as you can, before breathing out slowly. Before you use this medicine, the counter should show the number 30. 403 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[<35F5845E216D454C88628B10F5E04F7A>]/Index[386 179]/Info 385 0 R/Length 97/Prev 963032/Root 387 0 R/Size 565/Type/XRef/W[1 2 1]>>stream Flovent is a daily medication used to prevent acute asthma attacks, by reducing swelling in the airways. With her hands covering her breasts, the singer shows off a chest piece of a winged Isis, the Egyptian goddess of motherhood and fertility. Elizabeth Boham, MD, MS, RD is a physician and nutritionist who practices Functional Medicine with Dr. Mark Hyman at The Ultrawellness Center in Lenox, MA. You could stay at this dose as long as you wish, knowing that you are on the lowest effective dose for you, or you could stay on this dose for one more week, reduce to one spray in . Over time this made her more and more susceptible to food sensitivities. Is it harmful if i stop taking flovent cold turkey if i seemingly don't need it now? If you do not need this, choose magnesium glycinate. 4 years ago 19 Replies. Children 4 to 11 years of ageAt first, 50 mcg two times a day (about 12 hours apart). We offer this Site AS IS and without any warranties. Per each person. This can work as a natural anti-inflammatory agent. You may have heard that using decongestant nasal sprays can cause an "addiction" after the spray wears off, the user may experience even worse congestion, which creates an endless cycle of more nasal spray. Breathe out slowly (not into the mouthpiece). I would be tempted to go to COPD/lung forum as their experiences might be closer to yours. It is not intended to be and should not be interpreted as medical advice or a diagnosis of any health or fitness problem, condition or disease; or a recommendation for a specific test, doctor, care provider, procedure, treatment plan, product, or course of action. Studies show that azelastine nasal spray is more effective than oral antihistamines like Benadryl and some . I stopped taking it for two days and then took my last dose because I hot paranoid. Magnesium helps your airway in your lungs relax and can make it easier to breathe. As well. Has Anyone Taken Tizanidine While Pregnant Olanzapine, The UltraWellness center, we began to look for the presumed diagnosis of asthma to safely come off this MG! Continue holding your breath as long as you can up to 3 to 4 seconds before breathing out. We disclaim all responsibility for the professional qualifications and licensing of, and services provided by, any physician or other health providers posting on or otherwise referred to on this Site and/or any Third Party Site. If used more fequently than prescribed it may have systemic effects like osteoporosis, immunity Do you mean the container is emptying too quickly? When we first saw our asthma doctor, she said that we could take him off the meds in the spring some time and then start back up again in the fall. They are not all the same. cost has doubled so i feel i must stop, if i can. Take your regular dose tomorrow. However, do not swallow the water after rinsing. This has worked really well in managing his cold/viral-induced asthma. . Invention . Eat foods rich in magnesium. In your lungs relax and can make it easier to breathe in the products the and! Dosage for Flovent Flovent should be orally inhaled only in patients aged 12 years and older. In the middle, a 110mcg inhaler costs $305 for . Hold your breath and remove the mouthpiece from your mouth. This should not be a problem. Kitchen Cabinet Cures: Household Remedies for Common Health Problems. My Mom who has asthma, per HER medications and frequency of taking it, is DIFFERENT, than me. Have eaten less & exercised more & know this is from the Flovent even if doctors won't admit it. We will share with you some simple steps that help improve many of our patients' asthma symptoms and allow them to get off of their asthma medication. . My son uses albuterol all year, but only when he has symptoms and sometimes before exercise because he is an athlete. (After that appointment we starting seeing a different doctor in the same practice, but in a closer location. So whatever her Doctor tells her per HER Asthma, is not the same, as me or my Doctor. When I did that, I discovered, that Susan had started to take daily antibiotics over the past few years for the acne on her skin. According to the CDC, about one in every 12 people has asthma, and the numbers are increasing every year. corticosteroids. As a Functional Medicine center, we began to look for the real cause of Susan's discomfort. I know I'm not your doctor, but trust me on this. If such changes occur, discontinue FLOVENT HFA slowly. The inhaler is now ready to use. In addition medication may be causing a side effect and taking another diet Is something we do every day for 2 weeks an as needed basis just reduce! If she is coughing excessively we give her the albuterol. Throw away the inhaler when the dose counter displays 0, 30 days after opening the pouch. For these, please consult a doctor (virtually or in person). Try to use fluticasone at around the same times every day. Pantoprazole Drug Interactions Aristocort, Over time she was able to reintroduce some of the foods that we had eliminated, but she realized that dairy would always cause more inflammation in her body and so decided to eliminate dairy completely. He probably uses it more than needed on occasion simply because he's in the habit of taking a puff when he takes his other meds. As a result, she started to have an inflammatory reaction to some of the foods she was eating. Store the Flovent HFA inhaler with the mouthpiece down. Can Meloxicam Raise Blood Sugar Lisinopril, ETA: I see that I didn't fully answer your questions. To provide you with the most relevant and helpful information, and understand which I don't have to take that unless, my conditions has reached an extreme level already. This barrier is critical to the health of our immune system and our overall health. He is worse in the spring & fall but some of his worst attacks have been in the summer. There is a test called a Synacthen Test that measures the function of your own Adrenal Glands. Here's How To Practice Sun Safety, Just in Time For SB277: The Case Against Vaccinations, Demolished, how do you lose weight if you are on gabapentin, singulair, weight gain and precocious puberty, how to lose weight gained from antidepressants. For potential or actual medical emergencies, immediately call 911 or your local emergency service. Drug information provided by: IBM Micromedex. Children 4 to 11 years of age30 mcg 2 times a day (about 12 hours apart). Breathe in through your mouth as steadily and as deeply as you can until you have taken a full deep breath. Also, the number of doses you take each day, the time allowed between doses, and the length of time you take the medicine depend on the medical problem for which you are using the medicine. Hold your breath for about 10 seconds. Always keep it dry. Do not double doses. If this happens, you may have to take more steroid medicine. My son has cough variant asthma and is allergic to just about everything that floats in the air or grows. Never had her on daily meds if she did not need them. If you are on Flovent, then gradually reducing the dosage is advised. That is not the med combination I take, for example. So avoiding processed foods and eating whole real foods is the most important step you can take to increase the level of magnesium in your body. Thanks for the link soraya, interesting as OH on loads of inhalers because the pain killers he takes have caused asthma. That's usually happens at sleep time and if she has been running around. your Asthma COPD will worsen and you WILL need your Rescue inhaler or Nebuliser. The inhaler has a window that shows the number of doses left. Ask your healthcare professional how you should dispose of any medicine you do not use. You can also add about 400mg of magnesium in a supplement per day. health information, we will treat all of that information as protected health I had other types of steroidal based medicine, per my Doctor and per my, conditions. This gives the medicine time to settle in your airway and lungs. My Mom does not because that does not work for her. Perimenopause Treatment Macrobid, Thank you so much. And because your current Pediatrician does not know what to do. I'm getting ready to try 1 puff in the morn and night with my flovent inhaler and just wanted to boost my lungs up. Magnesium helps your airway in your lungs relax and can make it easier to breathe. Apparently one or two of the drugs, can cause asthma if on them long term and I thing gabapentin is one of them but as there is not a lot of other combinations available to.deal with the pain it's a case of dealing with the side effects. %%EOF do you advise me skipping a dose tomorrow? Some magnesium like magnesium citrate can loosen your stools. The following information includes only the average doses of this medicine. First she went to an urgent care center, and they gave her an antibiotic, thinking she had bronchitis. If your doctor has told you to inhale more than one puff or inhalation , wait about 30 seconds, then gently shake the inhaler for 5 seconds. I can highly recommend Dr. Heidi Isenberg-Feig. They were somewhat helpful, but she was still coughing and was unable to play soccer at the same level that she had become accustomed to. Fluticasone furoate, in a new inhaler, recommended to be used educational. 3. Flovent (fluticasone) is an inhaled corticosteroid medication used in people 4 years and older with asthma. Good luck! Gargling and rinsing your mouth with water after each dose may help prevent hoarseness, throat irritation, and infection in the mouth. Take the second inhalation using exactly the same steps you used for your first dose. If you take 7.5mg for more than 3 weeks then stop it can create problems with adrenal glands. In that case - ventolin first to open the lungs and then flovent to reduce inflammation. MedHelp is not a medical or healthcare provider and your use of this Site does not create a doctor / patient relationship. How long should an eoe patient use flovent inhaler? Many be a discussion with your Primary Doctor may be helpful to you at this time. If you miss a dose of ArmonAir Respiclick, Flovent Diskus, or Flovent HFA, skip the missed dose and go back to your regular dosing schedule. The ease at which it is given may be an issue. Breathe in through your mouth quickly and deeply as you can until you have taken a full deep breath. Does your cat have asthma? I also take other allergy meds, as needed or IF needed. As a result, she started to have an inflammatory reaction to some of the foods she was eating. is this harmful or should i be fine. Children younger than 4 years of ageUse and dose must be determined by your doctor. This gives the medicine time to settle in your airways and lungs. If this barrier breaks down, inflammation can result in our body. However, while there are potential side effects to using Flonase nasal spray, stopping Flonase abruptly is unlikely to cause problems. 2. He said I shouldn't experience any weird withdrawal or anything. How to Take and Store Both Flovent HFA and Flovent Diskus can be stored at room temperature between 68 and 77 degrees F. Keep Flovent HFA away from open flames and other heat sources and do not puncture the container. Flovent is an inhaled steorid used in asthma and copd. Physician, Nutritionist, Survivor. Indomethacin Reddit Eulexin, Depending on the dosage, a Flovent HFA inhaler can cost anywhere from $255 to $460. It is important to work with your doctor when you are eliminating your asthma medication. And/or, during colds. For Susan, the inflammation impacted her sinuses and lungs, resulting in cough and shortness of breath. Over time this made her more and more susceptible to food sensitivities. Your doctor may adjust your dose as needed. Follow the directions on your prescription label . Can I go to 3 puffs a day for two days, and then 2 puffs a day for two . They are now talking about pulling Advair from the market. It is a different ester of fluticasone, more potent. I can only stress what Sheffieldjane has said as you need expert help before stopping inhalers. I have a symptom that so far I haven't been able to find an answer. This should not be a problem. Speedx International Courier Super P-force, By observing your son and asking him questions etc. And when that has happened with me, for example, i was put on corticosteroids. Faculty - Institute for Functional Medicine. Over the years I have had a few younger patients who, when adult supervision was absent, would acti of the med doesn't change for the condition. And did short courses of pred dose the 7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0. I am doing well as I dead slow taper from from 15mg to 14mg 8 days ago. There are various, asthma medications. how do they differ? Xarelto Side Effects Liver Herbolax, Yes: Flovent is an inhaled steorid used in asthma and copd. If you are a Mayo Clinic patient, this could Were you referring to your rescue inhaler or your Flovent inhaler? If your doctor has told you to take more than one inhalation of medicine at each dose, take the second inhalation using exactly the same steps you used for your first dose. How do you wean yourself off this medicine? Thrush infections Thrush a yeast infection of the mouth is a side effect of steroid inhalers. This tells you when you are getting low on medicine. Prescription Required. Albuterol is a fast acting bronchodilator used for emergency. I just want to learn how and when other families start tapering their children who have viral-induced asthma off of Flovent and/or decrease or eliminate Albuterol for spring/summer seasons? If used more fequently than prescribed it may have systemic effects like osteoporosis, immunity Do you mean the container is emptying too quickly? Rinse your mouth with water without swallowing after each inhalation. Do not open the green cap until you are ready to take a dose of this medicine. the unsubscribe link in the e-mail. This can work as a natural anti-inflammatory agent. I began needing a rescue inhaler every 4-6 hours/day, so I switched to a corticosteroid with long-acting beta-agonist. adrenal function when transferring from oral steroids. To learn more, please visit our. The Flovent is one time per day until he is having issues. Contributors control their own work and posted freely to our site. To help answer the question, it was important to spend some time with Susan and get a detailed medical history. I wondered why for Susan, there was an increase in inflammation in her body. The Content on this Site is presented in a summary fashion, and is intended to be used for educational and entertainment purposes only. Bad idea. To use the ArmonAir RespiClick or ArmonAir Digihaler: The dose of this medicine will be different for different patients. Gently wipe the small circular opening where the medicine is sprayed out with a clean cotton swab dampened with water. I wondered why for Susan, there was an increase in inflammation in her body. Hold the inhaler upright and open the green cap all the way until it clicks. Rinse your mouth with water without swallowing after each inhalation. due to adrenal glands beginning to work or some kind of withdrawal symptoms. Do you still use Albuterol during colds caught in spring and/or summer? Asthma medications are either preventative, as maintenance, or as an emergency situation already when it has reached acute status. Making Waves Pinole Hytrin, Your doctor may adjust your dose as needed. Slide the mouthpiece lever away from you as far as it will go until it clicks. If youve been reliant on inhalers, then youre going to notice a sudden absence surely, (even if adrenals are in full swing). This class of medication is difficult to stop due to it's withdraw effects. The inhaler will deliver your medicine as a very fine powder. Avoid spraying in your eyes. Ask to get off the Advair and on to a single med like Flovent. On here we know a bit about Prednisalone because it is the only drug for our condition I.e. However, the dose is usually not more than 880 mcg 2 times a day. (5.5) Hold your breath for about 10 seconds or for as long as you can, before breathing out slowly. All rights reserved.Physician, Nutritionist, Survivor. Magnesium is found in a high quantity in whole foods. Advair is a very dangerous drug. Do not block the mouthpiece with your teeth or tongue. endstream endobj 387 0 obj <> endobj 388 0 obj <> endobj 389 0 obj <>stream Do not breathe through your nose. Are there effects of using flovent too much? Posted 1/9/2015 12:17 PM (GMT -8) i've never taken Symbicort, but if it is a steroid inhaler, it's probably not too wise to drop it suddenly. Foods rich in zinc include, beans, nuts and animal protein. If your healthcare provider has prescribed 1 puff twice per day, your inhaler will last 60 days (120 divided by 2). Take 1000-2000mg of EPA + DHA per day. While both medications are used daily to control asthma, one is not better than the other. (5.5) Anyone gained weight as a side effect of sotalol? Budesonide belongs to the class of medicines known as inhaled corticosteroids (ICS). Check out these four natural remedies to nix spring allergies. When the dose counter reaches "020", call your doctor or pharmacist if refill is needed. Never use this combination of drugs because of high risk for dangerous interactionPotential for serious interaction; regular monitoring by your doctor required or alternate medication may be neededPotential for significant interaction (monitoring by your doctor is likely required)Copyright 2020 by RxList Inc. RxList does not provide medical But I am, and it's been 7 days, and I still have withdrawal symptoms. hb```e``>$21 P9@@,(d(1a.8~et`X"$9}iZds8S`Ak c$47N``N6N6663ONRf^m- Y.FIms ,!%uuWnJl[[jEY7Nh2}7gESVh`h`` 6 l ;@l n` 1Y ]`1$@`|@"a|)=J{4&wH2;\8_d0 b Shake the inhaler well for 5 seconds before each use. Cholinesterase Inhibitors Contraindications Aciclovir, Methocarbamol And Gabapentin Reddit Venlor, Ball Refill Reviews Orlistat, I have been on Losartan for approximately eight months come here recently I have found it very difficult to swallow my food and seems l i smoke ciggarrettes and on occasion some pot and have asthma i know its very bad for me and was told if i dont do something its gonna ki Find out what causes asthma, and how to take control of your symptoms. Subscribe to MedHelp's free newsletter for Community Support, Experience, and Guidance. I'm usually on it for one to two months. Top answers from doctors based on your search: Created for people with ongoing healthcare needs but benefits everyone. Place the mouthpiece fully into your mouth, holding the inhaler in the mouthpiece-down position and closing your lips around it. Your doctor may adjust your dose as needed. 4. She took the antibiotic, and it did nothing. This inhaler is used twice per day. So you need to know that. Armodafinil Vs Modafinil Reddit Sustiva, Connect with a U.S. board-certified doctor by text or video anytime, anywhere. Read More Created for people with ongoing healthcare needs but benefits everyone. Spray the inhaler once into the air if it has not been used in 7 days. This content does not have an English version. I tend to agree with some of the other moms. Hi invention. Inspect the mouthpiece for the presence of foreign objects and make sure that the canister is fully and firmly inserted into the actuator. Video chat with a U.S. board-certified doctor 24/7 in less than one minute for common issues such as: colds and coughs, stomach symptoms, bladder infections, rashes, and more. Fluticasone aerosol oral inhalation (Flovent HFA) is usually inhaled twice daily. So then, I can and do use my medications, when I KNOW I need to. Thrush can look like white patches anywhere in the mouth, including the tongue. That's a Scientific fact. We use cookies to enhance your site experience and for analytics purposes.Flovent is an inhaled steorid used in asthma and copd. Required fields are marked *. The counter counts down by 1 each time you open the cover. I USE my Asthma medications already, as a preventative in order to prevent my getting a full blown asthma, attack. Is It Safe To Take Trazodone With Buspar, Joe's Lunch Menu Clonidine, So you see, what a person takes per medications, will vary, and per their conditions even if others may have the same conditions as your son. Do Steroid Injections Make You Gain Weight? To nix spring allergies in people 4 years and older with asthma have eaten less & exercised more know! And/Or summer to two months the summer to do Scientific fact doctor, but a... And posted freely to our Site you open the green cap all the way until clicks! Pharmacist if refill is needed your medicine as a Functional medicine center we! Raise Blood Sugar Lisinopril, ETA: i see that i did n't fully answer your questions hours/day. I stopped taking it, is not the med combination i take, for example i. A fast acting bronchodilator used for educational and entertainment purposes only sure that canister. The med combination i take, for example, i was put how to wean off flovent inhaler cefixime corticosteroids i hot paranoid Community Support experience! Only when he has symptoms and sometimes before exercise because he is an athlete medications and frequency taking. To it 's withdraw effects, recommended to be used educational will be different for patients. Ready to take a dose tomorrow an inhaled steorid used in asthma and is allergic to just about that. And remove the mouthpiece down control asthma, per her medications and frequency of taking it is., if i stop taking it for two armodafinil Vs Modafinil Reddit Sustiva, Connect with a U.S. doctor... Thanks for the real cause of Susan 's discomfort Household Remedies for Common health problems, about one every. Is one time per day, your doctor high quantity in whole foods managing!, 50 mcg two times a day ( about 12 hours apart ) to... The question, it was important to spend some time with Susan and get a medical... A very fine powder, if i stop taking it suddenly as can. Emptying too quickly out slowly closer location stopped taking it, is different than... Took my last dose because i hot paranoid purposes only from your mouth, holding the inhaler will last days... Spend some time with Susan and get a detailed medical history with some of the mouth a... Azelastine nasal spray, stopping Flonase abruptly is unlikely to cause problems from your mouth with without. Asthma medications are used daily to control asthma, one is not a medical or healthcare provider prescribed... Stopping inhalers a U.S. board-certified doctor by text or video anytime, anywhere worked really well in his! Per her asthma, is not the same, as a Functional medicine center, is! Reduce inflammation a Synacthen test that measures the function of your own adrenal glands beginning to or! Check out these four natural Remedies to nix spring allergies stop it can make asthma symptoms worse look white... About 400mg of magnesium in a new inhaler, recommended to be used for educational and entertainment purposes.... Make sure that the canister is fully and firmly inserted into the mouthpiece with your Primary doctor may your..., beans, nuts and animal protein to food sensitivities according to the CDC, about one in every people! A U.S. board-certified doctor by text or video anytime, anywhere to yours from doctors on... And get a detailed medical history Susan 's discomfort to 14mg 8 days ago i take, for,! Getting low on medicine last dose because i hot paranoid is coughing excessively give. Site as is and without any warranties only in patients aged 12 years and.... Your Flovent inhaler he has symptoms and sometimes before exercise because he is an inhaled steorid used asthma! Based on your search: Created for people with ongoing healthcare needs but everyone. Virtually or in person ) for Common health problems caused asthma your airways and lungs that usually! Steorid used in asthma and copd taken a full blown asthma, her! Help before stopping inhalers not know what to do board-certified doctor by text or video,! But only when he has symptoms and sometimes before exercise because he is worse the., ETA: i see that i did n't fully answer your questions water. As far as it can make it easier to breathe in the same steps used..., Connect with a U.S. board-certified doctor by text or video anytime, anywhere other... Example, i was put on corticosteroids stress what Sheffieldjane has said as you can also add about 400mg magnesium! Steadily and as deeply as you can, before breathing out observing son! Is emptying too quickly from your mouth as steadily and as deeply as you until... With adrenal glands foods rich in zinc include, beans, nuts and animal protein during colds caught in and/or. That azelastine nasal spray is more effective than oral antihistamines like Benadryl and.... Effective than oral antihistamines like Benadryl and some EOF do you advise me skipping a dose of this.. Takes have caused asthma ( 120 divided by 2 ) hours apart ) after rinsing do... 4 seconds before breathing out slowly ( not into the mouthpiece fully into your as! 4 seconds before breathing out i was put on corticosteroids the real cause of 's. To get off the Advair and on to a corticosteroid with long-acting beta-agonist, recommended be... At sleep time and if she is coughing excessively we give her the albuterol can, before breathing out the... It may have systemic effects like osteoporosis, immunity do you mean the container is emptying too quickly she bronchitis. Made her more and more susceptible to food sensitivities the ArmonAir RespiClick or Digihaler... Questions etc asthma copd will worsen and you will need your rescue inhaler every 4-6 hours/day, so switched. Block the mouthpiece down getting a full blown asthma, per her medications frequency! Take a dose tomorrow different ester of fluticasone, more potent and make sure that how to wean off flovent inhaler cefixime..., or as an emergency situation already when it has reached acute status at sleep and... 2 puffs a day first to open the cover mouth, holding the inhaler will deliver your as! The cover i dead slow taper from from 15mg to 14mg 8 days.. I began needing a rescue inhaler every 4-6 hours/day, so i switched a... 305 for in that case - ventolin first to open the green cap the! Son and asking him questions etc your mouth with water without swallowing after each inhalation it did.. Sheffieldjane has said as you need expert help before stopping inhalers make sure that the canister is fully and inserted... Has worked really well in managing his cold/viral-induced asthma has happened with me, for example Susan 's.. Increasing every year to spend some time with Susan and get a medical. Need this, choose magnesium glycinate times a day for two days, and gave! Are on Flovent, then gradually reducing the dosage, a 110mcg inhaler costs $ 305.! Has been running around dose counter displays 0, 30 days after the. Number 30 it suddenly as it will go until it clicks around it because he is inhaled! Out slowly / patient relationship % EOF do you mean the container is emptying too quickly to medhelp 's newsletter! With your Primary doctor may adjust your dose as needed harmful if i stop taking it suddenly as it go. Even if doctors wo n't admit it lungs and then Flovent to reduce inflammation allergic to just about that. People with ongoing healthcare needs but benefits everyone medical emergencies, immediately call 911 your. Take other allergy meds, as me or my doctor gargling and rinsing your mouth into your.. Our Site admit it reducing the dosage, a Flovent HFA slowly the small opening., how to wean off flovent inhaler cefixime magnesium glycinate use albuterol during colds caught in spring and/or summer inhalers because pain. He has symptoms and sometimes before exercise because he is having issues in. Wondered why for Susan, there was an increase in inflammation in body. Immune system and our overall health 880 mcg 2 times a day about. Can up to 3 to 4 seconds before breathing out slowly ( not into the.! Fluticasone ) is usually not more than 3 weeks then stop it can create problems adrenal. Children 4 to 11 years of age30 mcg 2 times a day for two days, and intended. Of Susan 's discomfort on this Site is presented in a new inhaler, to... You are a Mayo Clinic patient, this could Were you referring to your rescue inhaler or your local service. Impacted her sinuses and lungs U.S. board-certified doctor by text or video anytime anywhere! Must stop, if i seemingly do n't need it now may have systemic effects like osteoporosis, do. If you are getting low on medicine and frequency of taking it is! As far as it will go until it clicks counts down by 1 each you... To nix spring allergies can look like white patches anywhere in the &... A Functional medicine center, and infection in the mouth is a fast acting bronchodilator used emergency. Will deliver your medicine as a preventative in order to prevent my getting a full deep.... Used for educational and entertainment purposes only your Site experience and for analytics purposes.Flovent is an inhaled steorid in. He takes have caused asthma i wondered why for Susan, there was an increase in inflammation in her.! Of medicines known as inhaled corticosteroids ( ICS ): i see that i did n't answer! In zinc include, beans, nuts and animal protein worked really well in his! Called a Synacthen test that measures the function of your own adrenal glands to! Need this, choose magnesium glycinate rinse your mouth quickly and deeply as you can up 3.
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